Discussion:
Where to get samples for the CEN photometric data file format (EN13032-1:2004). . . Asking again.
(too old to reply)
Wladimir Jordanow
2005-09-28 18:02:20 UTC
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I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.

Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
Victor Roberts
2005-09-28 18:46:00 UTC
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On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:02:20 +0200, Wladimir Jordanow
Post by Wladimir Jordanow
I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.
Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
I don't have an answer for you, but it would seem that a
good source for the photometric data files would be European
luminaire manufacturers.
--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
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JB
2005-09-28 20:24:58 UTC
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Post by Victor Roberts
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:02:20 +0200, Wladimir Jordanow
Post by Wladimir Jordanow
I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.
Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
I don't have an answer for you, but it would seem that a
good source for the photometric data files would be European
luminaire manufacturers.
--
We're a luminaire manufacturer based in the UK, but it would appear that
this format is almost unheard of over here. Eulumdat and TM14 are the most
popular here, as most of the leading lighting design packages accept these
formats by default.
I've got a copy of the CEN standard for reference but I'm certainly not
planning on producing any CEN photometric files anytime soon. You may want
to speak to someone in the lighting design departments at either Zumtobel or
Fagerhult.

JB
Bremecker
2005-09-28 21:28:00 UTC
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Post by JB
Post by Victor Roberts
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:02:20 +0200, Wladimir Jordanow
Post by Wladimir Jordanow
I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.
Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
I don't have an answer for you, but it would seem that a
good source for the photometric data files would be European
luminaire manufacturers.
--
We're a luminaire manufacturer based in the UK, but it would appear that
this format is almost unheard of over here. Eulumdat and TM14 are the most
popular here, as most of the leading lighting design packages accept these
formats by default.
I've got a copy of the CEN standard for reference but I'm certainly not
planning on producing any CEN photometric files anytime soon. You may want
to speak to someone in the lighting design departments at either Zumtobel or
Fagerhult.
JB
This format is pretty new, as you know. Most of the manufacturers are
not updating their measurement equipment, thats normally produce those
files, very often.

And I think that there is not really a need for this new format. The
complete product data of fixtures are normally kept in
databases/electronic catalogues. If the lighting designer needs some
data for a calculation, eulumdat, ies or tm14 is enough. The CEN format
offers much more than the old file formats, but this is not necessary if
the manufacturer offers electronic catalogues that contains all the
information about a fixture, including photometrics. The most popular
lighting calculation tools are handling it in this way. So personally I
think that this format will not become very popular. It is the same with
IES2002. This is also a very "complete" format which is not very often
in use.

Regards

WB
Wladimir Jordanow
2005-10-06 21:45:41 UTC
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Many thanks to all that aswered my question! Thanks!
Post by Bremecker
And I think that there is not really a need for this new format.
I am very glad to hear some external opinions, as hard as my own,
according the usefulness of the new CEN photometric format.

But I am in the same way very disturbed, about the sense and the reasons
of the experts, who enacted the EN 13032-1 just a some months ago
(December 2004). Why do they define standards, that obviously nobody
needs and make some rules, that no person comply with?

If there is someone who disagrees whit this, please give some pro
arguments for this work? Do someone knows any of the creators of this
standard? Maybe someone of them can explain us this phenomenon?

I agree to all manufacturers who are using own databases/electronic
catalogues for distributing the own fixtures, but this makes it not
realy easy for people, having to estimate/compare the usability of
different fixtures for given kind of illumination task. And the few
professional tools, that do this in some way, are either not popular or
very expensive and thus not available for the common user.

I do not think, that the free available tools (such as Dialux or Relux)
have nowadays any really good solution for this job.

Is it possible to initiate a open source project, based on already
accepted and commonly used photometric formats, dealing with this
problem. I do not mean, doing or replacing complete lighting
calculations (there are many good tools doing this) but just providing
simple routines, to handle the different (format) photometric data
available in a comparable way and to anable input-functionality for any
further lighting calculations?

We should be glad to support or coordinate any kind of efforts,
implementing this, if enough companies or experts find the idea useful.

Any kind of opinion is warmly appreciated. Please send a cc. to my
e-mail to, thus I do not have everyday-access tho the group. You can
write me in german if you like.

Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
Post by Bremecker
Post by JB
Post by Victor Roberts
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:02:20 +0200, Wladimir Jordanow
Post by Wladimir Jordanow
I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.
Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
I don't have an answer for you, but it would seem that a
good source for the photometric data files would be European
luminaire manufacturers.
--
We're a luminaire manufacturer based in the UK, but it would appear
that this format is almost unheard of over here. Eulumdat and TM14 are
the most popular here, as most of the leading lighting design packages
accept these formats by default.
I've got a copy of the CEN standard for reference but I'm certainly
not planning on producing any CEN photometric files anytime soon. You
may want to speak to someone in the lighting design departments at
either Zumtobel or Fagerhult.
JB
This format is pretty new, as you know. Most of the manufacturers are
not updating their measurement equipment, thats normally produce those
files, very often.
And I think that there is not really a need for this new format. The
complete product data of fixtures are normally kept in
databases/electronic catalogues. If the lighting designer needs some
data for a calculation, eulumdat, ies or tm14 is enough. The CEN format
offers much more than the old file formats, but this is not necessary if
the manufacturer offers electronic catalogues that contains all the
information about a fixture, including photometrics. The most popular
lighting calculation tools are handling it in this way. So personally I
think that this format will not become very popular. It is the same with
IES2002. This is also a very "complete" format which is not very often
in use.
Regards
WB
TKM
2005-10-07 02:12:51 UTC
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Post by Wladimir Jordanow
Many thanks to all that aswered my question! Thanks!
Post by Bremecker
And I think that there is not really a need for this new format.
I am very glad to hear some external opinions, as hard as my own,
according the usefulness of the new CEN photometric format.
But I am in the same way very disturbed, about the sense and the reasons
of the experts, who enacted the EN 13032-1 just a some months ago
(December 2004). Why do they define standards, that obviously nobody needs
and make some rules, that no person comply with?
If there is someone who disagrees whit this, please give some pro
arguments for this work? Do someone knows any of the creators of this
standard? Maybe someone of them can explain us this phenomenon?
I agree to all manufacturers who are using own databases/electronic
catalogues for distributing the own fixtures, but this makes it not realy
easy for people, having to estimate/compare the usability of different
fixtures for given kind of illumination task. And the few professional
tools, that do this in some way, are either not popular or very expensive
and thus not available for the common user.
I do not think, that the free available tools (such as Dialux or Relux)
have nowadays any really good solution for this job.
Is it possible to initiate a open source project, based on already
accepted and commonly used photometric formats, dealing with this problem.
I do not mean, doing or replacing complete lighting calculations (there
are many good tools doing this) but just providing simple routines, to
handle the different (format) photometric data available in a comparable
way and to anable input-functionality for any further lighting
calculations?
We should be glad to support or coordinate any kind of efforts,
implementing this, if enough companies or experts find the idea useful.
Any kind of opinion is warmly appreciated. Please send a cc. to my e-mail
to, thus I do not have everyday-access tho the group. You can write me in
german if you like.
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
As you might expect, there are some politics involved. Rightly, the
International Commission on Illumination (CIE) as the body responsible for
global lighting standards should write and maintain the photometric format.
And, they have done that successfully with a strong consensus and
cooperation from CIE members. The CIE publication reference is:
Publication CIE 102-1993, ISBN 3 900 734 40 2.
CEN, however, seems to want to set itself up as an alternative global
standards writing body. In this case, they confuse the issue. In other
cases, they seem to be able to push their lighting standards ahead of those
from the CIE. Already, there have been some complaints within the CIE.

I don't know how this competition will work out, but it is frustrating for
many countries to see the CEN standards adopted. Emerging countries such as
India and several in South America are calling for changes because they do
not feel that CEN (and to some extent CIE standards) can apply to their
countries with such different economic conditions. The CIE is sensitive to
the issue. I don't know about CEN.

The CIE group (a CIE Technical Commitee or TC) involved with the CIE
photometric format is open and eager for participation from many countries.
I am not a member of that TC and so do not know the current members or
chairman; but there is information on the CIE web site at:
http://www.ee.tut.fi/tel/cie4/ The work resides in CIE Division 4, TC 4-16.
You can e-mail the CIE Central Bureau to make contact with the TC 4-16
Chairman if you wish.

Terry McGowan
MPJ
2005-10-07 19:25:51 UTC
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I work for one of the main lighting software providers in the USA and
we have customers all over the world. We respond to the demands of our
customers in regards to supporting photometric file standards and I
agree with the general comments in this thread that there is little or
no demand for the CEN format and it isn't really necessary either.
Producing and distributing photometric files is a distraction to
luminaire manufactures and the last thing they want to do is to convert
all of their data into yet another format. The only motivation they
will have to produce files in this format is if customers demand it,
and customers will only demand it if the software they are using
requires it. All of the software in existence has support for other
formats so none would ever presumably demand this new format.

The CIE's photometric file format has been in existence since the mid
1990's. We originally added support for it in our products but dropped
it in later releases. I don't think I ever saw any manufacturers
adopting the CIE format and we have no current demand for it. In the
US, we use the IESNA format and in Europe there were a few being used,
TM-14, LTL-I and EULUMDAT. But now it seems EULUMDAT dominates.
Australia seems to use TM-14 and IESNA, Japan and Korea seem to
commonly use IESNA and other markets that are mature enough to care
about photometry either use the US or European standards. That's my
observation.

It is interesting to note that the EULUMDAT format was not even
developed by a standards body, it was developed by Axel Stockmar's
company for use in their own lighting software products. Since it met
the general needs of their customers and since I believe many companies
also used lighting database management tools from Axel, a lot of
products ended up being put into this format. It therefore became a
defacto standard.

In regards to the "need" for an open source tool to deal with
photometry, what exactly do you mean? What do you require that is not
already provided in Dialux, Relux or any of the other independent
programs on the market that read these files and display reports for
the products they import? Is it data translation? Photometric data
viewing? Photometric data comparisons?

Several photometric tools are already on the market:

Photometric Toolbox - www.agi32.com (general tool for creating files,
producing reports and many types of plots)

Simply Photometrics - www.lighting-technologies.com (reads and converts
between IESNA, TM-14 and EULUMDAT)

Photometrics Pro - www.photometricspro.com (general tool for reports
and plots)

Photometric Data Viewer -
www.acuitybrandslighting.com/lightware/Software/Photometric_Viewer/
(general tool for viewing photometry and reports)

The last program is free, the others are all sold for a fee since they
are developed by independent software companies, not lighting
manufactures.

Mark Jongewaard
Lighting Technologies, Inc.
s***@gmail.com
2013-12-28 09:46:51 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Wladimir Jordanow
I do not have any answer on my question so far. But i stil hope, there
are experts out there, who can help us.
Who knows some online source for such photometric files or knows
somebody, who uses them?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Kind regards
Wladimir Jordanow
Dear Mr. Jordanow, is this blog still active?

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